09 Jan First-Gen Voices Interview Transcript: Amber

Interviewer: Lux Darkbloom
Interview Subject: Amber Cruz 

Amber: My name is Amber Cruz. I’m originally from Utah, and I grew up in Utah. My mother, she immigrated here actually from Argentina. And I’m just a child of a single parent, and she is my greatest inspiration, I guess. And I have three siblings. I have one older sister and two little siblings. They’re both…one of them is in high school right now and one of them is on their way to high school so that’s pretty exciting. My hobbies…I haven’t had much time for them as I’m adjusting to university, but I really enjoy writing poetry, creative writing. I did a couple of projects with that while I was in high school, like community organization-wise. But yeah, I really enjoy poetry. And I think my favorite author, aside from poetry even, is Toni Morrison overall. I really like Song of Solomon. I think that’s my favorite book ever. Yeah. 

Lux: What initially motivated you to pursue higher ed?

Amber: My mother always encouraged me to go find something that I was going to do and get an education. So, like, I’ve always really wanted to go to university. When I was in my sophomore year of high school, I was kind of hyperfixated on it. And I wanted to go to Stanford.

Lux: Oh, that is big and lofty.

Amber: Yeah, I actually…somebody from my home high school had graduated and gone to Stanford. I got to call her on Instagram. And I was like, “How do I get into there?” And she was just like, “Take the pre-SAT, take everything you can, get as much aid as you can, and then really look into the school and consider, is this the best thing for you to go into? And are you willing to pay this much money to go into?” And then in my junior year–so the year after–I hit a really bad slump and my grades were going down and everything was going down. And I was like, I’m putting so much pressure on myself to go to higher education. Like I don’t even want to go anymore for real. It wasn’t ever that serious. And then it didn’t make sense to me what I would do after, you know. During high school, I was in kind of an accelerated program. It was called the Jordan Academy for Technology and Careers. I went all three years of high school because in my district, you only get like three years. And I did two years engineering, one year computer science. And I thought to myself, “Gosh, it’d be so boring not to do this ever again, to just go through high school and do this once and then never pursue it ever again.” And that made me super sad. And I started reading more on robotics. There was an article–or not an article–it was a study, a kind of retrospective thing. I don’t know what to call it. It was by this Chinese professor called Yangping Liu. And he basically surveyed all regions of China in industrial manufacturing and how industrial robotics impacted their waste management.

Lux: That’s so cool.

Amber: It was! It was so cool. I read it for like two days on end and I was like highlighting everything and I was jotting notes down. I was like, I would love to write something like this. And I was like, well, I have to go to college to do that. So yeah.

Lux: That’s so cool. I love your answer. Like lots of different points of inspiration, too. And like a lot of it feels–and correct me if I’m wrong–but it seems like you’re…you’ve explored different disciplines and really have started getting a sense of what you are super interested in and what you want to do, career-wise.

Amber: I think career is a really big part of it. When I was, like, early middle school, I was drawing comics and stuff. And I still have those, like, kind of manuscripts. So again, I’m a very creative writing-centered person. Like, so the idea of building something by hand was super nice. So I always really liked engineering, but I’m not like big building [person]…Like I thought the only type of engineering you could do was civil engineering where you’re building buildings and, like, houses and stuff. Then I realized like somebody has got to be making all these machines though. Like, who’s that? I want to be that person.

Lux: I love that. Do you have, like…is there any tie-in between your interest in science and engineering and your interest in literature?

Amber: I think the major tie-in is really the themes of literature that are mostly commentary on, like, [the] working class right now. I just saw this interview and…I got to talk a little bit about it in my creative writing class with other people. It’s this book that came out by the same woman who wrote Why Women Hate Men. And it was analyzing–I think it’s called The New Age of Sexism– and it’s analyzing the relationship between AI and non-consenting women, or even these imaginary ideas of women and how they’re being made products and how they’re being mass-produced. And I think that’s so evil and dystopian that it’s cartoonish. 

Lux: Oh yeah. Yeah, “dystopian” is the best way to describe it. Because yeah, like you’re talking about like these…it’s just like the ultimate objectification, right? Like the dehumanization of women via AI. AI has got a lot of, boy, a lot of potential for harm and good, huh? 

Amber: Harm and good, yeah. And I think the more I learn about it, the more I’m like, this could be so good. It’s just in the hands of the wrong people. I was in an interview for Sterling Scholar and they asked me, because I was in the computer tech category, and they asked me like, “What are your thoughts on AI?” And I guess I forgot I was in an interview because I told them, I think it’s a product that came out too early and fed to us by Silicon Valley as kind of this half-baked idea. And the person who was interviewing me, I guess, got a little bit offended and almost a little bit sad that I said something like that. But it’s true. It shouldn’t have been put out so early when it’s so unfiltered and unmitigated and, frankly, uncalibrated for our environment, right? It doesn’t consider the environment around it. 

Lux: Yep. Exactly. Like the tech billionaires get to make these decisions, and legislation doesn’t regulate anything now.

Amber: Yeah. There’s, like, pretty scary videos of people coming out who live next to AI plants and their water pressure is so low that they have like drips coming out of their faucet. Like it’s…they’re paying for the water that the AI is taking.

Lux: Yep. Yeah. It’s incredible taking it directly from just like the folks who live there without any regulation at all. It’s wild…So kind of a shift in direction. We’ll kind of bounce all over. I really like this to stay conversational, you know? So you mentioned that your mom is one of your biggest role models. As you have begun the higher ed experience, have you found role models or mentors within the institution or even outside of it who, yeah, have given you some guidance or support or just encouraged you?

Amber: I think my high school counselors were really good. When I was in middle school and I was like, “I don’t know what I want to do because I’m in middle school.” I met this woman. Her name was Amy Gibson. And she told me about the JATC [Jordan Academy for Technology and Careers], about concurrent enrollment and AP classes and stuff like that. And I think the greatest support that I’ll probably get maybe ever is pre-college because in college they have success coaches and they have things like the writing center, the math center, which is pretty cool. But there’s just so many people to get through. I don’t know if you’re able to make that kind of emotional connection and depth.

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s hard to engage services sometimes on such a big campus because either, you know, they’re restrictive as far as, say, their hours don’t work with your class times or like if you have a work schedule…or a lot of services. I think I’ve heard from many students, a lot of services just aren’t super well-marketed. So we have programs for first-gen students on campus, but very few. Have you encountered anything along those lines?

Amber: I have. And I really wanted to participate in this for-credit class that was for, specifically, first gen students. And it even had a scholarship fund. And I just wasn’t able to go into it because all of my required courses were overlapping it. So I was pretty upset by that, that it wasn’t an everyday thing or an online thing. I was very upset.

Lux: That’s really hard because your required courses are going to take precedence always, like especially with…well, there are so many factors like, you know, you never know when classes are going to be put on the schedule. But you also don’t know if you want to–I don’t know–spend extra course hours in order to get into those places. But I think that makes a lot of sense that having them more frequently–or having these courses available online would be such a huge, huge benefit, you know, especially if it’s asynchronous. So you don’t have to be there at a certain time.

Amber: Yeah. Actually, because I work for the U, I applied to the Learn and Earn program, like, last week. And I’m really hoping I get in because it is kind of this background thing you can focus on while building your career skills, professional skills, stuff that’s like actually supporting material to the academic that you are and you aspire to be. I think that’s a cool program. But it was like one email, you know, if you’re not looking through your email all the time, how are you ever going to find it?

Lux: Yeah, I mean, sometimes you just get inundated by emails or by schoolwork or by life generally, and it’s very easy to lose track of that stuff or just not even open it. But yeah, I can totally feel that. I relate. You mentioned you’re working at the U?

Amber: I am. I’m a classroom assistant at a daycare.

Lux: Oh, that’s so cool. That’s awesome. How long have you been there?

Amber: I’ve been there since late July. I actually signed my offer letter for June. And then I wasn’t turning 18 until July. And they were like, “Shoot, you can’t come in until after you’re 18.” I was like, “Okay, that makes sense.” Then I came in and I’ve been settling pretty well. I think I’ve been late a couple of times, which is scary because, like, usually, I’ve never been late to any of the jobs that I’ve been in. But it is like this kind of different thing where you’re working with a lot of public transportation and like moving around.

Lux: Yeah, getting to campus is not easy. And like, whether you’re using public transit–or like the parking situation is pretty dire these days. I’ve heard, well, I’ve seen, I’ve experienced. So yeah, it can be quite tricky. Is it a full-time position or part-time?

Amber: It is part-time.

Lux: Nice. And do you do school full-time or part-time?

Amber: I do it full-time because I’m on Pell Grant.

Lux: Oh, cool. Nice, nice. So how do you find balancing all of those different variables like work, school, your social life, family life, stuff like that–or even just having time to yourself?

Amber: I think–and this is going to sound like such a boring way to live–but I enjoy it…I focus on the things I need to focus on. And that’s like, I know that’s kind of a…you should have rather different things going on in life, but I can’t bring myself to do that physically. What I do is I go Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday to class, and I stay on campus. I will wake up at, like, 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, truck to class, and then I’ll stay at school for school and work. And then I’ll go back on campus to study, and then I can go home. And by the time I get home, it’s already 9:00. And I do that five times in a row.

Lux: That is the longest day. Oh my goodness.

Amber: Yeah. And it’s like, it sounds kind of boring, but I’m having a lot of fun with it because in those empty spaces, I get to wander around. I’ve explored a lot of buildings, and one of my misadventures was I stole this coupon from the biomed office that said, “Bring to the financial wellness clinic for a free gift.” And so I go and they tell me, “I’ve never seen this in my life.” So I come back next week and I’m like, “I want to redeem this coupon today, please.” And they say, “We actually never got gifts.” So it was just a lie. They gave me a tote bag. So I took the tote bag and then I go downstairs to the food pantry and I say, “Can I have some food, please?” And I brought crackers home. And when I came home, I was felt really satisfied because I, I like did a lot that day.

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. I think navigating the campus is really challenging.

Amber: It’s all uphill.

Lux: Yes. That is my least favorite part about it. Entirely uphill. What…Can you remind me? I’m not sure if you’ve said it yet, but what year are you in school?

Amber: I am a freshman. This is all new and shiny to me, which is probably why I can, like, do this with such satisfaction. Like I believe if I was maybe a little more, um, worn in, I’d probably not be so happy about the way I live right now, but I don’t know.It’s kind of new and innovative to me.

Lux: I get it. I really do. Like there’s something so satisfying about getting to study the stuff that you really, truly care about. And, and even just exploring other courses and doing your generals, like if there’s…if you’re intellectually curious, it can be just the greatest experience ever. Right. So yeah, I totally can relate to that feeling. Um, so tell me about your first year on campus or even, like, your first semester on campus. What has that been like?

Amber: So far, it’s really fun. I think I use my time pretty well. Cause I have, like…I don’t drive, so I can’t just drive away from the school. I have to make very purposeful decisions about my whole day and my whole commute. And so I will never waste two hours of my day getting to school just to leave an hour later. Um, I stay there. I use the resources. I’m like in the math center pretty much whenever I’m not in class because I’m a real…I have a real struggle with math. And I went to the writing center for the first time last week and they’re the ones who helped me finish my essay for the Learn and Earn and the people there were so nice, you know?

Lux: Nice. I’m so glad to hear that. The writing center is really great. I don’t have any experience with like the math center, but that’s so cool. Do they offer tutoring and stuff or…?

Amber: So they have, like, a really nice flag system. They have a little peg board, and you get different colors of flags. And I have a red flag because my math is the easiest one. [Laughs] I will just wave it around or put it on the peg, and somebody will come up to me and they’re like, “What do you need help with?” And they’ll explain it to me in, like, five minutes or 30 seconds sometimes. And I’ll be so much better. Like it feels so much better than sitting in front of the screen for 20 minutes, just like blanking out.

Lux: Yeah. Oh, that’s so cool. I love that system. That’s rad. Let’s see…So thinking about your experience through the lens of being first-gen, do you feel that being first-gen status had any kind of impact on your choice of major or what you’re thinking about doing career-wise?

Amber: I definitely think so. In a very… [Laughs] I often tell my friends I’m not going to college out of want, I’m going out of fear, you know? My mother, when I was very young, she’d be working two jobs. I wouldn’t see her the whole day. And it was so sad to watch this really intelligent woman kind of be in such an unintelligent role. The reason I got so hyperfixated on industry and production is because that’s what the sector she works [in]. So as I’ve been growing up, I’ve heard a lot about the kind of redundancies this industry has. And the way it affects the workers’ health is so much of a byproduct that you can’t really and justifiably tie it to your industry directly. When you’re staring down in a microscope all day, for instance, you’re going to develop a lazy eye because your eyes are being treated differently. And it’s like wearing a monocle that you don’t need all day long. And honestly, we invented barcodes a long time ago. We have recognition…pattern recognition now through machine learning and AI. And I don’t see a reason why a human being should be subjected to kind of this, frankly, not very humane lifestyle for a wage, anything other than a wage. So if I’m going to go to university, I’m going to try to make the places that I’ve experienced secondhand a little bit better.

Lux: Yeah, I love that. Like so much of…I can relate in that way as well…for those of us whose folks are immigrants or those of us who have single parents or who’ve been single parents, like, yeah, that is so real. Yeah, that is so real. Seeing the way that industry unnecessarily burns out and, you know, frankly, exploits workers. So yeah, that makes so much sense. So a little bit of a shift again–still looking at this through the lens of first gen experience, do you feel like that had an impact on your ability to pay tuition or navigate the financial aid system? You mentioned that you have a Pell Grant.

Amber: I do. Pell Grant is basically the federal funding you get from FAFSA to go to university [as an] undergraduate. And they give me full Pell Grant since my index is zero. So I get $4,000 about for each semester, but the U’s tuition is, like, $5,000. So there’s a $1,000 deficit there. And if you’re working a part-time job, it’s kind of hard to make $1,000 in three months. Like I work nine hours a week. That’s not that much at, like, probably–What am I? Like $14 an hour–I’m not making that deadline, you know. So I think working with financial aid is number one. Luckily, I have also a scholarship. I’m on the For Utah scholarship, which is for first-gen students, and they cover the rest of your tuition after your Pell Grant. So that came along with covering differentials and things I didn’t know existed. I didn’t know you had to pay for things like chemistry differential, math differential, engineering differential. Frankly, I don’t really know what that’s for. It’s on my tuition. 

Lux: Yeah, this is a recurring conversation I’ve actually had. Tuition differentials are sometimes just so costly, especially depending on which college your major falls under. Like engineering or business, they tend to have some of the highest differentials. And yeah, there’s not a lot of transparency about what is the purpose of these differentials? Where does that money go? Because you’re already paying tuition costs and student fees. And yeah, all of these kinds of… you can look at your tuition bill, and it’s all itemized, but it doesn’t mean that it’s clear at all about where those funds are going to. 

Amber: It’s kooky and it’s crazy to me, and I’m so happy I’m on scholarship. But to be honest, there are other schools that didn’t offer me anything. Ironically, I was wanting to go to SLCC, and I applied to a bunch of SLCC scholarships and I didn’t get any. Like it really depends where you will be emphasized as a student, I guess, and where…which school believes that you’re gonna succeed in their institution. And even with that, I know the U has had a lot of controversies with not listening to students when it comes to parking. Like I think Mecha at the U of U is really good at being a true student newsletter. I follow them on Instagram, and I followed them like the majority of high school. So I was able to see like, oh, the U is kind of struggling when it comes to student petition and student things. And then in the summer we heard a lot about ICE coming and taking students just like straight off the campus. And that is crazy because to go to the school, you need to have some sort of DACA or DREAM or…and even besides that, they’re in a school. That is crazy to me.

Lux: Protected spaces, especially like, it’s just extra…adding insult to injury that students have paid to be in these spaces, and they’re being targeted there.

Amber: So, so much money to be in the states.

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just awful and disgusting that we’re not getting more administrative support–saying that the university will not cooperate with ICE. But yeah, it sure seems like that’s not the direction they’re going. But Mecha is such a great student organization, and the activism that they do is incredibly important. And I’m just so glad that you discovered them even when you were in high school. That’s so great. Are you connected with them on campus at all? Like, do you participate in events they do or?

Amber: I want to, but again, cause I don’t live there. It’s hard to get up there for their weekend protests and stuff. Cause the weekend is really where I center my social life. I’m out all weekend long, and I’m doing self-care all weekend long, while I’m really focused on school on the weekdays. So if I was living on campus, I definitely would want to join their org because they’re so cool. I think they’re the coolest people on campus probably.

Lux: Agreed. So you’re living, you said right at the tip of Utah County. So you’re commuting every day and via public transit. What is that like? Like how many hours does that take collectively do you think?

Amber: It’s a total of about four hours back and forth.

Lux: That’s a huge sacrifice of your time. Incredible. Are you able to–I don’t know–study at all in that time as you’re commuting? Like do you do Front Runner or…?

Amber: I do this thing called UTA on Demand. It’s like Uber, but because I’m a U student, I get it for free. And I will be damned if I get something for free and I don’t use it. So it’s really competitive to order a ride on there. So sometimes it’ll be just like, “We don’t have more cars. You can’t order right now.” And you’ll have to wait for an hour. So that’s why I wake up so early, and I get to the Daybreak station, which…they just fixed the red line. And I’m really thankful for it because that cuts my commute by 30 minutes. When I was working this summer, it was about three hours to two and a half hours.

Lux: No way. That’s incredible. Damn. And what is the name of that service? That’s the kind of Uber-like service? 

Amber: It’s called UTA on demand. I’m a big fan of it. It serves certain regions. Like if you’re living in Bountiful, they do that. I live in Bluffdale. But they serve down here, in the South Salt Lake, parts of Draper, Sandy, Bluffdale, Riverton, and Herriman. Pretty extensive.

Lux: Damn. That’s really cool. Yeah. That’s so awesome. I haven’t…this is like the first I’ve heard of that. That’s so cool.

Amber: I really think they should put more money into it because like, honestly, I’ve never seen anybody get on a Flex. Okay. I’ll say it. Some of these things are a little outdated and I feel like the UTA on Demand is more useful than some of the other ones.

Lux: Oh yeah. I…that makes a lot of sense. A lot of sense. So we were talking about this a little bit earlier kind of indirectly, but as far as resources and services on campus go that are intended/designed for first gen students. But do you feel that with or without those services…do you feel that being first generation has in any way had an impact on your academic success for the positive or negative or even, you know, no impact?

Amber: I believe so, completely and totally. Yeah. I think especially financial aid stuff, the things that are peripheral really determine the things that are at the forefront.

Lux: Yeah.

Amber: Whenever I had a question about how to apply for scholarships, my mom could not answer that, you know. That’s just not her area of expertise. If I asked her for motivation advice, how to work hard, you know, she could answer me there. If I needed an uplift, she could answer me there. But really I was relying on in-daylight hours for my high school counselors. I’m relying on in-daylight hours for the counselors at the U. And sometimes the people you think are supposed to be able to help you just don’t. Like my academic advisors, I was like, “Can you review a scholarship for me?” Because I thought that was how it worked, you know. It’s in their name. “Academic.” They were like, “No, we don’t do that.” “Who does do that then? What do you do?” I was so confused on, like, the role and purpose here. Like they’re cool. I like all of my advisors, and they were really helpful during orientation. But that’s like Christmas day. That’s one time. I don’t know.

Lux: Yeah. That’s like they just kind of front load it with all of this information that one meeting and whether it’s, you know, tailored to your needs or not, it’s just like here is a heap of information. I didn’t realize they wouldn’t look at scholarship stuff. That’s wild. 

Amber: Yeah, you just have to go to the writing center. And the issue with that is the Writing Center is sometimes closed at 5:00. Like on Fridays, I didn’t know they closed at 5:00. My classes end at 4:30. Like let me in?

Lux: Yeah. Like, come on, have some more flexibility, at least with hours. Like that’s wild. I didn’t realize that either, that it closed so early on Fridays.

Amber: I didn’t know that 4:30 is like a late time on campus. Like that’s midday.

Lux: No, I totally agree. That’s so wild. So as far as…it seems like you are really good at taking care of both your academic needs, your financial needs, your support needs, your self-care, social life, all of that. Do you feel like being first-gen has been in any way like a catalyst for those skills or do you feel like it has impacted you in other ways, socially or emotionally?

Amber: I was going to say socially is an intense one. I find it really hard to actually, like, make friends. A lot of these people are either legacy students or their parents went to school in a different place, but you know, it was predestined that they’d come here. And so I have grown kind of a resentment toward even certain conversational topics, which I never really felt before. It was really odd that some people would complain about– what’s one example?–Oh! Just the fact they had to take certain classes as prerequisites. If you don’t want to, find a different college. I don’t know, opt out or test out. If you truly think you are that competent, test out. Let’s put our money where our mouth is, you know? And that sounds really competitive and that sounds really hostile, but that’s the truth of the matter. It’s so insecure and kind of cringy to say, I worked really hard to get here, but I think that’s true. I genuinely did sacrifice a lot of time to be in this position, and I do so with a lot of intent and care. And in that way, I have a lot of sentimentality toward it. However, I also feel very–what’s it called?–attacked in a way when people say that it’s really not that serious, or it’s really not that hard because it feels really hard all the time.

Lux: Yeah, and saying that it’s not really hard is just so myopic. It may not be in quotes, hard for other folks, but they’re not really taking into consideration the privilege that comes with not having that stress or pressure of navigating it all successfully because they’ve got folks who they know have been through it.

Amber: Yeah.

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like, well…have you had any faculty members that have identified themselves as first-gen?

Amber: Actually, there’s been a few, but I went to this conference last Saturday and it was called Women Who Succeed. It’s for a mentorship program and I’m a mentee. And so I met a bunch of first-gen students actually, and they kind of have similar mentalities like this is hard and we should call it hard. And I also met a lot of separate people who don’t really wear their heart on their sleeve. They don’t really speak with a lot of, frankly, aggressive language like I do. And that felt really odd. [Laughs] So the flavors are just so different between a lot of different first-gen students, but I certainly enjoy the company of the people who are more abrupt and kind of, I don’t know, scary, I guess. 

Lux: Just like direct, right?

Amber: Yeah. That’s what it’s called, direct.

Lux: And like being honest about stuff, like being authentic about your feelings about the experience. Because like, yeah, it’s easy to kind of…it’s not easy to fake it, but faking it is definitely an option. And just being like, “Oh, this isn’t that hard.” But it is hard in so many ways. And acting like it isn’t…if you’re faking it, you’re not doing yourself any favors.

Amber: It’s just like- It feels like the wrong attitude for the wrong place.

Lux: Yeah, I agree. I think being authentic is just the easiest way to navigate situations because you’re not like…well, you’re not trying to pretend to be something else. So yeah…That’s so interesting though, that this conference, it was called…Women Who Succeed? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Amber: It’s partially sponsored by the Ken Garff Foundation. So they work a lot with the U, and their meetings are often at the Ken Garff building next to the business center, right? And I went when I was a junior in high school. I think I was a junior. And then I came again this time because my experience in high school was that it was super-duper sponsored. So they wanted you to use a lot of specific brands. That was kind of like, eh. I didn’t feel like I really got a lot out of it. I did, however, meet this super cool person who was my mentor. Their name was Ocean. Ocean is also an engineering person, I believe. I still follow them on LinkedIn. So I’ll get updates on them sometimes. And they’re quite successful in their field. And they’re so cool. And they were one of those people where it’s like, college is hard. And we got along over that. And then the people that I have in the second cohort are…one of them is Latina, and I believe the other one is first-generation. And so having this combination of people is super exciting. And I really like the people I’ve been paired up with. They’re all very fun and enthusiastic so I hope it goes well. But basically, what the program does is you fill out a form online on their website, just search up Women Who Succeed. And then the year, whatever year it is, and then you fill out their application for either collegiate or high school. They’ll set it all up for you. You’ll get a bunch of follow up emails, and you have to interview. And it’s not a competitive thing. It’s more of a thing of like first come, first serve, how many seats do we have? And they give you a workbook. I think I have mine. They give you a workbook for August to maybe November. This is what it looks like. It’s purple-themed, very pink. And you work through a bunch of activities like navigating scholarships, ones for skill developments…What’s another one? Mindfulness and healthy body image, building credit and financial independence, you know…it’s like all good stuff that you need to have.

Lux: That is so cool. That reminds me a lot of a book that the director of the Wellness Center has put together where it’s more focusing on kind of like health insurance literacy, that sort of thing, but they have different literacies for their resources that they tailor. So that’s really cool, though. And meeting folks through these opportunities is huge. That’s such a common experience where you’re like, “Well, I went for the conference and the conference was like, whatever. But I did meet this person who is going to be really important to me, and like we connected in a real way…Let’s see, I got just a few questions for you. First, that is my cat in the background. He’s discovered a bag so I’m going to get him real quick. Pardon that interruption. So let’s see, at the university, there’s this, there’s a couple of initiatives that I wanted to talk about, and they couldn’t be more different from each other. So one is called You Belong, and it’s all about trying to foster a sense of community on campus, or at least stating that this is a value of the campus or the administration. The other initiative–very different–is one where students and faculty are really strongly encouraged to get students to graduate in four years. And I would love to hear what your thoughts are on those.

Amber: [Laughs] The first one is nice. I see posters up about it, and I think it’s super cool because I definitely think it is more of a, if you’re living in the dorms thing, because again, the day and night hours at the U are like so short and in between. So some people gotta get home to like bathe and shower, you know, that’s what, that’s what it is.So I feel like You Belong–maybe there should be more initiatives for students who live off campus, students who commute, but I definitely think that it’s super cool that the people who live in the dorms do and are able to, like, have all this fun stuff. I think if they’re paying for it, they deserve it. The second one is super weird because, you know, like in engineering, you’re told you have a five-year pathway, and if you graduate in four, frankly, that’s impressive. We’re at a stage in tech where you need to learn basically everything, and that’s been accumulated over such a long time that it’s nearly impossible to stuff that much knowledge into a person so well that they can practice it in the span of four years.

Lux: Agreed.

Amber: So it’s not that I don’t believe that you can’t, I just don’t believe that you should. I don’t think that comes with quality. I’d say the same thing definitely for the arts even. Art is coming into such a dynamic field with technology that, like, theater production and cinematography, like, you need to learn so much to be able to move with all the new technology coming into the forefront. How are you going to do that in four years?

Lux: Yeah, do you feel like that gives students enough time to explore different disciplines or anything? [Laughs at a face AC makes] Nah?

Amber: No, like if you want to change your mind a year in, you’re behind now. This doesn’t fit into their four-year mentality. Does that mean they restart your timer, or does that mean now you’re required to take 18 to 20 credits? What does that mean for you as a student, and does that mean if you slip up, you’re done? What does that entail?

Lux: Yeah, like if you go beyond that four-year timeline, do they no longer have resources for you?

Amber: They’re just like, you’re done. Their idea, like I’ve spoken to success coaches at their booths and things, and they say like, “Well, we’re available even after you graduate.” But I question with so many alumni, how many are you actually informing so that you’re useful and helpful during things like interview processes, which in software engineering, for example, will be extensive because the field is so oversaturated. How genuine are you being with that? “We’ll be there for you even after you graduate, so it’s okay that you’ve picked this one thing.” It feels a little deceptive when your team is so small.

Lux: Yeah, because if there are maybe, what, maybe a dozen student success advocates for our campus of 35,000 undergraduates, that’s an awful lot. I don’t know how that works out, or if it does work out, but it sure seems counterproductive, to say the least. Similarly with–and I don’t know if this is official or not yet–but there was some conversation about limiting how many classes students can take during a certain time frame. I want to say it was, like, between 9:00 and 2:00, something like this. 

Amber: Oh, isn’t this to optimize parking?

Lux: Yes, you have heard of it, okay.

Amber: Silly, silly. Even though I don’t drive, I find it important because, like, a lot of my friends do, so silly, silly, Billy, you know, just build more parking. If Utah is already so car-centered, and I understand that you have shuttles and Trax and things, I’ll be the one to say it, as somebody who rides them daily, unreliable. Because it is, you can never predict what’s going to happen, and then when it does, you’re 30 minutes delayed. That’s half of your class, if you have a 50-minute class, that’s all of your lab, if you have a lab, you know what I’m saying? It’s like, to say just like, “Oh, you can navigate around our parking system.” Why would we do that if we’re paying for the parking ticket, you know? You’re paying for the parking permit, and even at the Institute, like, I’ll be running up and down South Campus at the bus line, where the South Campus track station is. The Institute, one of their advertisements is, you can park here for free if you join the Institute.

Lux: Oh, wow.

Amber: Oh, you Silly Billy. They’re saying it’s a problem, to the point where it’s an asset.

Lux: Yeah, that’s incredible. It is a commuter campus, you’d think that maybe they would consider that.

Amber: It’s also built at the top of the mountain, like, in the winter, I’m horrified at the amount of e-scooter accidents that are bound to happen. 

Lux: Totally, yeah. There’s no infrastructure to support that kind of setup on campus, really.

Amber: And I don’t think it’s like a problem that can be solved tomorrow, right?

Lux: Yeah.

Amber: But it definitely is a problem that we should have predicted today. That would happen when you’re building so much housing for so many students coming out of state,because they’re going to bring their cars. How are they getting their stuff here? Yeah, that feels like a pretty easy cause and effect scenario.

Lux: Sure does, yeah. Not accounting for the increase in admissions, too, now that it’s, like, an open enrollment kind of situation, where you don’t have to apply to be accepted. You just are automatically accepted now. So, you mentioned a little earlier when we were talking about the You Belong thing, and, like, seeing theNah. I’m sure you’ve seen, like, the signage and stuff, like, the banners around campus. And that is great for folks who are able to live on campus, but in what ways would you like to see support extended to folks who aren’t part of that group of people? Which is, like, the majority of folks are not part of that group of people who are living on campus, right?

Amber: I definitely think if you had, like, a continental breakfast here and now for students who are on campus early, just for free. Because, like, honestly, I never bring lunch to school. How am I supposed to keep it refrigerated?

Lux: Yeah. 

Amber: So, I starve throughout the day. And I’m not paying $10 at Panda Express for a meal, mainly because that’s an hour of work for me. I’m not doing that. And so, I’ve been subsisting off water and bubble gum, which isn’t that bad, you know. But it gets to a point where I’m just, like, can I please have, like, a free microwavable burrito? And the U [food] pantries, they’re pretty nice, but I think they should be spread out throughout campus. Because if you’re running up and down from the Union, down to South Campus, up to North Campus, it’s like, what is this game that I’m playing? I feel like a mouse in a trap. Mine is mostly food-based because I believe with food, you can just meet so many people, you know. It’s really commonplace. I think party-wise, maybe have them a little earlier, to be honest. When the U had the Crimson Night, I was there, you know. I wanted to check around and see what was up. But it was, like…it was such a small venue with so many people, and it took so long to get to their line. And that was kind of stressful as somebody who, like, I just planned to get in at 9:00, out at 10:30. Because, like, not a super party person, but I wanted to see my friends and stuff. And just have them earlier. Like, there was no reason it needed to be at 9:00pm. And I truly and truly believe the reason it was is because it was a party targeted toward the dorms, even with the shuttle system. They had a late night special event shuttle that didn’t stop by the tracks. It only went to villages.

Lux: Oh, geez. And yeah, if you don’t have a car, how are you gonna get back when public transit…it closes around, like, 11?

Amber: Yeah.

Lux: So that would be just damn near impossible to be there, enjoy yourself without the stress of, like, I have to haul ass to get home.

Amber: Yeah.

Lux: That’s so stressful. 

Amber: It was. And then it’s so dark, too. I don’t want to get…because I, frankly, am not an intimidating person. I would mug me. [Laughs] That’s it’s an easy target, you know. So I think, like, safety-wise, the campus is super safe, but they don’t consider, like, “If I have a party in the middle of the night, how easy is it for somebody to get back home in the middle of the dark?”

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a very real concern. And I mean, it should be a bigger concern because, like, yeah…I mean, even sexual violence on campus is such a huge issue so we want to make sure that folks are safe at events. But…I guess that’s pretty limited, the wanting there. As far as resources for first-gen students go–how do I say this?–I will say that it’s a positive that we have some resources for first-gen students on campus. I will also say that it’s really challenging to…it seems like the administration is challenged by finding resources that are a good fit for lots of student identities that fall under the heading of first-gen. It’s not just …that’s not your whole identity. There are so many other components and facets and layers of identity for all of our students that one label is just it’s…it’s pretty destructive, I think, to collapse those multiple identities into one. But that said, it does kind of give this false impression that all first-gen students have the same group of needs rather than…this is really a bunch of varieties of people who are enrolling as first-gen every semester. So, yeah, it’s a challenge, but there’s definitely better ways to accommodate a variety of student needs. That said–that’s totally like my own soapbox–if you could imagine like a–not in an ideal system, but just an improvement of what we’ve got working on campus now. Like you mentioned earlier, like having more of those courses offered for like, say, the First-Gen Scholars course, which is the for-credit one, instead of just those two days of the week and those particular very limited hours. But what else do you think would be helpful? Like for a broad, broad audience?

Amber: It’s so hard to say, like what I personally know that I want without sounding like, “Give me money,” but that’s the heart of it. 

Lux: That’s totally valid.

Amber: What I would do, to be honest, is…I would love immersion trips. Like if there was a limited pool of students who could sign up and the U could bus them and house them for even low cost to no cost, I would love to attend a science conference in San Francisco. I would love to go see a lecture at Stanford. I would love so many of these enriching and so maybe never-feasible occasions as a first gen scholar. And I think that would really connect me with the U as an institution and higher education as a concept. Definitely more for-credit first-year classes and maybe over first year. Like the first-year one is specifically to know about how to navigate school, study tactics, basically like ACT prep. If you could give then for-credit, career coaching, internship, resume building type stuff for like juniors, sophomores, seniors? Beautiful. Even if you could integrate your own internship program into your facilities. 

Lux: Yeah.

Amber: The Jordan Academy for Technology and Careers, they do that. I would…I love that type stuff. And then I definitely believe if you’re going to do First-Gen Scholars, you’re going to embrace first-gen immigrants. That’s…that’s what it is. I want discount housing. I want tuition assistance. You know, all of these things, even finishing your immigration papers–that helps that help students and that keeps your brains in your community. If they came here and they’re going through so much effort, they want to stay here and contribute to your economy, to your thoughts, to your community. But that’s my opinion.

Lux: No, I think that is so great. Like we need to show up for our students more because like you said, there’s just not a lot of money funneled toward these resources. Right. Like all of that stuff, like going to conferences. I don’t know why that would be seen as an extra or like a peripheral thing, you know? That’s a huge networking opportunity. That’s a huge opportunity for exploring different disciplines in a really highly concentrated short-term way. So, yeah, I think if we can afford to, you know, give the football team new trucks, we can afford to support our first gen students a lot better.

Amber: Is that a thing?

Lux: Oh, yeah. Yeah

Amber: Oh, my gosh.

Lux: It was in 2024, I want to say. I don’t know if they’ve done it this year, but yeah, that’s a real…it’s not off-brand, I’ll say.

Amber: Awesome sauce. Or I mean, I guess good for the football team. Like I…it’s not that I want to take money out of their pocket. It’s that I want to…I would also like some money in mine.

Lux: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel that. Like I mean–totally my opinion, not speaking for the university or whatever–but, you know, this is an academic institution. If we can afford two million dollars toward new trucks, we can certainly…maybe administrators need a pay cut? I know that that’s certainly an option to redistribute some wealth around, you know. But yeah, it’s not a super…I’m hearing a lot that many folks struggle to find community on campus. Many folks are struggling to get support or to get their questions answered. And we can just do better. We can. And I think you’re totally right about, like, the fewer barriers that are placed in front of students, the more that they’re going to have their head in their studies and their heads in their communities and being able to…just create more and be more curious and explore more. So, yeah, I am with you on all of that. Like, say you are meeting with a high school student who would be the first in their family or, like, their siblings and they are the first in their families to go to the university…or even a current first-gen student, what kind of–in this first year on campus, what kind of advice or guidance or words of encouragement would you have?

Amber: Number one, buy moisture wicking shirts. It’s hot over here.

Lux: Yeah

Amber:  Yeah! Number two. Sketchers make you look poor, but you are. Sometimes you’ve got to pick comfort over looks. OK, my sketchers, the elites, they got my back. I think it’s important to hold your own hand. You know, you’ve got to. You like sometimes I feel so isolated, but that’s because I am isolated. My friends aren’t always with me. Like sometimes I got to lean on my own shoulder and that’s OK because it’s hard right now, but it can be easier later as long as you get through the hard right now. Don’t just abandon. Don’t just get up and say, “I’m done with my homework tonight. I know it’s due tomorrow. I’ll finish it when I get home,” because you won’t. That’s the truth. You’re not going to do it. So you got to really push through this. And also you don’t always need to be studying, like even if you feel scared, even if you feel anxious, you can still watch that YouTube video. You can still spare 10 minutes for TikTok. Like I know there’s a lot of…not “sigma,” “stigma.” A lot of stigma in relaxing as a first-gen student because your parents are always telling you like, “It’s this or nothing else.” But it is this. This is part of…this is part of the current moment is you just, like, calming yourself down. And when you’re walking, you can look away from your phone, like you can look up. It’s a beautiful campus. Just take a look around, you know. And I think finally–and last thing I’ll always say about things like money–always apply for everything. Never not send an email, even if you feel obnoxious and even if you feel annoying, always be sending emails. If you have a question, send that email.

Amber: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it takes a lot of vulnerability to do that stuff. And it’s intimidating asking for help so frequently. But like one thing that I have heard over the course of these interviews that I’m doing is that, even when you’re afraid, first-gen students are really good at navigating complex systems of higher ed. The whole invisible curriculum that a lot of folks believe that continuing-generation students just…I don’t know about this invisible curriculum. A lot of folks are trying to figure it out, but it sure feels like there is a real deficit model placed on first-gen students, rather than this asset model of like, look at all of these skills that students are coming to campus with because so many folks are having to navigate all these complex systems, like academic advising, financial aid, student services, working with the…even, yeah, even stuff like parking and stuff like this. There are so many variables that everyone’s balancing. So it’s…yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I think that’s really good advice. Send that email. I know it sucks being in a position where, you know, you feel uncertain about a thing or…but I’m the first to admit when I don’t know something like, “Oh, I don’t know what that means, or I don’t know how to get there. What is that service you’re talking about?” But yeah…it just takes bravery to do it. And it’s not a “It just takes…” kind of scenario. It a lot. We’re asking so much. So you mentioned that you dedicate your weekend to kind of recentering a bit and getting in time with your friends, family, and time for yourself. Like what sort of self care do you feel has been helpful for you?

Amber: I think like, very traditional Thai self care. Like, I love doing face masks…Yeah, I love doing face masks. I love taking a deep scrub. I know bats are disgusting, but put your hair up. If your water is getting gray, that’s a you problem.

Lux: Yeah, yeah. [Laughs]

Amber: So I love taking a good, nice clean bath. And I like doing my hair. Sometimes I trim my hair. like my hair is really flat right now. And I have curly hair. So I need to like…I need to do it again. But I’m very traditional in that sense. And I’ll take time to just like, sit down and watch TV. I’ve been really into this guy on YouTube called Pugzer. He reviews something called splatterpunk literature.

Lux: Oh, cool…That’s so cool. Is that kind of like…talk about that a little. I’m just fascinated with this phrase.

Amber: I think…so the best definition I have for it is like, gore-centered horror. So my favorite so far that I’ve heard about is called Woom.

Lux: Oh, yes, I’ve read it.

Amber: It’s so good.

Lux: It’s so good. And so dark. I loved it. 

Amber: Love it so much. Like the fact that “rhotacism” sounds like “eroticism.”

Lux: Oh my god, we could talk about literature for probably the rest of the day. But does this feel like an okay place for us to wrap up here?

Amber: I think so. I definitely will put my last thought that first-gen students are always an asset. They’re never this second thought. Like the U, as an institution, you’re their first thought. Yeah, that’s what I’ll say.