Interviewer: Lux Darkbloom
Interview Subject: Dorothy

Lux: Could I have you please introduce yourself and just give us a little bit of information about stuff like your hobbies, your interests, if you have siblings, where you were born, that kind of thing. 

Dorothy: Yeah, so my name is Dorothy McGinnis. My married name is Dorothy Coburn, but I haven’t changed it legally yet. I am in my final semester at the University of Utah. Born and raised in Utah. Spent my whole life kind of right in the Salt Lake City area. Grew up in the Holladay-East Mill Creek area. I’ve lived downtown, I’ve lived in Sugar House, and I made my way back to the Holladay-East Mill Creek area. I am the daughter of two people who grew up in Wyoming. Same small town. They moved down to Salt Lake independently, not really having known each other because they were just far enough apart in age to not encounter each other at high school, but they both knew who each other were because it was a small town. They re-met or met in Salt Lake. Had both of my older brothers who were born in the 80s, they’re about 10 years older than me. Completed the family unit, and then I took them by surprise at [19]98. Turned out the family unit wasn’t complete. Yeah, and now I’m a strategic communications student. My big passion is writing. The most interesting thing about me is that I spent several years writing and performing spoken word poetry. I achieved some success in that. For a long time, all of the travel I had ever done was to perform my poetry in various places. And yeah, competed in poetry slams. I was on the team in 2018 that took fourth at the National Poetry Slam. But otherwise, you know, my passion is storytelling, which is kind of why I was interested in doing this. I just love stories. I love movies, TV, books. Trying to think of another hobby. Yeah.

Lux: Sounds like you’re pretty busy [unintelligible]. That’s incredible, though. So, you traveled and competed for spoken word poetry. What kind of themes do you write about?

Dorothy: I focus…someone once said that I was the girl poet in the scene at the time because I handled gender a lot, women’s issues a lot. I’m also queer. So, you know, yeah, I guess I’d say gender and sexuality is my main point of interest.

Lux: That is so cool. So, what initially motivated you to pursue higher ed?

Dorothy: I mean, it’s just kind of the thing you do. I went to Skyline High School, which was a really good…really well-ranked school. And it was kind of, it was just a given. It was like, it’s ridiculous to not go to college. Like, why would you do that? Your opportunities are so much greater if you go to college. And there was definitely a stigma in my social circles as a teenager against not only people who didn’t pursue higher education, but there was a stigma against not going somewhere prestigious enough. So I actually felt when I was like 17, 18, I felt kind of embarrassed about going to the U because all my friends were going to top tier universities in other states.

Lux: I don’t hear much about social pressures talked about openly in regards to higher ed. So it’s really, really fascinating. There are so many social pressures to achieve. And like you said, to go to a certain rank of school. But yeah, that would make things really tough and stressful. So feeling that kind of pressure to succeed, did that impact the way that you started your studies at the U?

Dorothy: For sure. I remember first hearing the phrase Imposter Syndrome, like, my freshman year of college and being like, “Oh yeah, that’s me.” Like, I definitely felt like I had tricked someone by getting into college at all. Like I was not supposed to be there.

Lux: That’s really sad to hear and also like such a common experience. I mean, I’m sure you know, like, it’s one of those things where, especially for those of us who are first-gen or second-gen where this feeling of, “Do I belong?” And that actually leads me to another question there. I was going to ask you this a little bit later, but I kind of, I think this makes sense now. So the university has, I’m sure you’ve seen this campaign that’s called U Belong, where…we know from the literature that having a sense of belonging at your university is pretty impactful on how successful you are academically. Do you feel like that has impacted your ability to succeed in any way, or maybe even in kind of an opposite way where it’s impelled you to succeed?

Dorothy: Yeah, so I actually, I kind of feel like I need to give context to this. I dropped out for several years. I started college 2016, fall of 2016. And I dropped spring of 2019, and then I just returned in fall of 2024. And yeah, I really felt that those first few years like I did not belong. Like there was not a place for me. And it really impacted my ability to participate in class discussions, to complete my work. I mean, my GPA those first few years was abysmal. It just, it felt like a losing battle. And so I was often like, “Why am I even, why am I even trying? Like I don’t…no one wants me here. I don’t belong here. This is a waste of my time and money.”

Lux: Yeah, that sounds brutal. How did you cope with those feelings? Because you’re back. I’m so glad that you’re back.

Dorothy: Yeah. Well, so I did utilize campus mental health resources. And they, I mean, like the suicidal ideation, those first couple years was very severe. And I don’t, I think that without the campus mental health resources, you know. What ended up bringing me back was I had entered the workforce, and it just became very clear to me that my potential in the workforce was limited without a degree. And that was very frustrating for me. And I just, when I came back, I had just matured and, you know, gotten a grip on my mental health and had a better social system and I mean more financial support. Just from my position in life in general to where a lot of those doors that appeared to be closed to me before were now open and I had just like a totally different outlook on education. My GPA is no longer abysmal.

Lux: We hear often that phrase, “It takes a village” about child rearing, but I think it really truly takes a large-ish community of support to get through something as long-term and taxing as getting your bachelor’s. It’s so valid. You mentioned that you were majoring in strategic communication. Is that right?Yeah, communications with a strong emphasis. Very cool. How did you, how did you decide to choose your major?

Dorothy: What a journey that was. Yeah, when I started I was actually a business scholar, I was in that Gold Business Scholars Program, and my goal at the time was to pursue marketing. You know, issues of belonging, issues there…it didn’t feel right to me. So in my first go at college, I dabbled in being an English major, a film major, theater major. It was really hard for me to see what I was working towards with those, even though they’re all things I’m so passionate about and I have so much love for. There was that real precarity and like, how am I going to pay my tuition, my loans one day? And when I came back, I tried to be a business major again. That was my plan and then my partner was like, “Are you out of your mind?” And I was like, “You’re right. I am.” My partner was a communications major. And so he was like, “You need to look into this.” And  as soon as I started taking comm classes that made perfect sense to me. It’s just, I mean it’s kind of a marriage of all the things I love about English and about theater and about film and even the things I love about business. They all come together in calm to where it’s both pragmatic and just like intellectually delicious.

Lux: So, it takes some exploring, right? It really does. And I’m wondering, now that there is this initiative from our administration that they’re really encouraging folks strongly to finish their degrees within a four-year period. What are your thoughts on that?

Dorothy: [Laughs] I would be lying to say that I don’t in some ways feel punished for the path I’ve taken. I am like constantly…I…I am no longer eligible for FAFSA because I’ve spent so much time at the U…I was on academic probation or something, and I had to do a whole appeal process, and, like, beg for mercy. And they still were like, “Yeah, sorry. You’re not in trouble, but you’re not getting any more funding.” And it was just a back and forth and a lot of paperwork and a huge headache, and it also really hurt my feelings to be told I was in academic probation or on jeopardy or something when I literally had a 4.0. But I had maxed out my credits. And I actually, I’m taking three classes this semester, my final semester, and there was a class that I was signed up for that was just like something I was passionate about, like, amazing professors I really wanted to learn what they were talking about. But because I hit my threshold, I was going to be penalized for taking that class so I had to drop it. And it feels like, feels like I’m a delinquent for having taken so long, when it’s like, “I didn’t want to take this long, but there was a teenager living in my body making every wrong decision once upon a time. And now I have the wherewithal to be strategic about my education and be dedicated to it and it’s just like, because of my unconventional path. It’s just a different set of circumstances for me.

Lux: I think your path is like…I wouldn’t even call it unconventional. So many folks …that’s how you do it, you know? There are so many right ways, paths, and trajectories–and this is just me speaking for myself and not on behalf of anybody at the university–but I could totally understand feeling punished for, you know, being just a regular teenager who’s trying to figure it out, and your prefrontal cortex isn’t developed until you’re, you know, closer to your 30s so it’s…yeah, that, that does feel like adding insult to injury, you know? How can you be penalized when you’ve got a four oh that’s just wild to me.

Dorothy: I was gonna double major, I was going to do Comm and English. But when I found out about this threshold of courses or credits you’re allowed to take I was like, “Nevermind. I guess I’ll get less education if that’s what you want.” But it’s just strange to me that anyone would ever be discouraged from taking more classes.

Lux: Yeah, I completely agree. That doesn’t make sense to me either. I would hope for more compassion, truly, being extended to our students.

Dorothy: One last thing is just, at least, more education, or–that’s the wrong word–but more publicity about these kinds of standards and expectations regarding…because I would have made different choices had I known that there was, like, a threshold of how many credits I can take. But I didn’t know that until I had exceeded that threshold.

Lux: Yeah, and FAFSA is definitely not–how do I say this?…It’s so full of jargon and legalese that it’s just not super intuitive or easy to interpret. So it makes a lot of sense that that would be one of those…I mean that’s a huge factor that they did not make clear to you. I’m so sorry that happened. Yeah, that’s brutal. You mentioned though you’re in your last semester right now. Congratulations.

Dorothy: Thank you.

Lux: Are you full-time, part-time as far as school goes?

Dorothy: Yeah, I’m part-time right now because there were only three more credits I needed for my communications and my English minor. So, it’s a very light semester, but…

Lux: Thank goodness, though. Had you been full-time before this semester, or also part-time?

Dorothy: Yeah, I think, since I returned I’ve been full-time.

Lux: So, are you working simultaneously, like a job outside of…

Dorothy: Yeah, so, um, one of the things required for a communications degree is an internship. That’s a required credit. So I, over the summer, started working at the U Career Success Office. Prior to that I was working for the city, doing a part-time job. 

Lux: Wow. That is so cool. And you’re working in the Career Services Department now. I imagine that your experience is so helpful to other students, trying to cope with all of these pressures, whether they’re from, you know, family, friends, the university itself. Being able to sort through that and find your way, it’s something that you have successfully done so I imagine that that’s really super helpful for the students you meet with.

Dorothy: Thank you…I feel like I’m always explaining my age to people. I’m surrounded by 20-year-olds, and I’m 27. But I do really appreciate that every time I have that conversation with someone, I’m expanding their idea of what it means to be an undergrad, and that like…you know, I hope that all of the 20-year-olds I’ve become friends with are able to smoothly complete their undergrad. But I hope that if anyone does falter or does need to take time off, that I’ve normalized that process a little bit for them. Because, sometimes, I feel embarrassed all the time about it so I hope that I can change those expectations for other people.

Lux: Yeah, for sure. And like I said, it is such a common experience I, I feel like language like, like the term “non-traditional student” is so archaic, and out of date, there, there’s no one age range that we’re meant to do this at, you know, so whatever path works is the right path. So going back to when you returned to the university, what was your first semester like?

Dorothy: It was at times very disorienting. The university had changed so much between 2019 and 2024, for really obvious reasons, but just walking across campus is totally different because my first time it felt like everything was under construction, and now they’re, like, a ton of shiny new buildings. But there were also like…I had no idea that all of my books were automatically loaded to me. I had no idea about First Day Access and so I bought a bunch of textbooks and then didn’t opt out because I just had no idea.

Lux: That is a really weird new thing though. It’s, like, brand new and I’m still wrapping my head around it too. So yeah, I bet that’s happened to quite a few folks.

Dorothy: I was just gonna say I think it’s a fantastic program. It would have been such a game changer for me in 2016 and 2017 if I hadn’t had to drop a bunch of money I didn’t have on books. So I mean all the changes are for the better, and that’s the thing is sometimes I’m like, I mean I’m really grateful that I wasn’t in education during COVID. So grateful for that. But I wish that I had entered into a post-COVID higher education world, instead of, like, yeah.

Lux: Yeah, no, that makes so much sense there. There were a lot of new services that were established because of COVID so it’s kind of disorienting for sure. One of the changes that’s happened over the past year is that we’ve seen a lot of resources, either being phased out or consolidated, renamed, that sort of thing. Like we saw the closure of the LGBTQ Resource Center, and the Women’s Resource Center. Do you feel like that’s had an impact on your experiences as a student now, or especially as a first-gen student, but you mentioned as a queer student, how that has impacted your, your sense of belonging, or even being able to engage services and resources on campus?

Dorothy: Yeah. I understand that a lot of those changes were not 100% of the university’s choosing or preference, or, you know, it’s hard to completely hold the U culpable for those changes, but it does…it has changed the way I perceive the institution. Even when I needed it most, I didn’t really take advantage of any of those resources. And I’m in a position now, where, you know, I’m married to a trans guy so it’s this funny thing where my queer identity is invisible, it’s like stealthy. So I don’t know, like, even if the LGBT Center existed today like how much I would use it. But I do…I do feel the lack. I do feel the absence of spaces that are dedicated to marginalized individuals, if that makes sense.

Lux: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And so shifting lanes a little bit, you mentioned that you…you had been made ineligible for FAFSA, and I was wondering how you resolved that and how you worked around that system, like, or not having access to it any longer in order to finish your program.

Dorothy: Yeah, so, I am very very unbelievably fortunate and so privileged that my in-laws, my family that I married into, has been able to assist me financially. If I had not lucked out in that way I would have, I would have dropped out. I would not have finished my degree…I mean I guess maybe I would have taken out a bunch of loans. But if I hadn’t had the support network I did, I think I probably would have been like, “Hey nevermind.” Honestly.

Lux: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That’s so valid. So, in terms of looking at this exclusively through a first-gen lens, do you feel like there have been people or resources on campus–or services, even–that impacted your academic success? And that can be for the positive or negative or, or even just not having an impact. So, things like connecting with faculty or learning about resources and services that are for first-gen students. Because, as you mentioned, this is like an invisible identity as well, where you can’t look at a student and be like, “Oh, well, they’re first-gen.” So, if you could talk a little bit about that, that would be great.

Dorothy: One phrase I think about a lot–and I’m looking into applying to grad school, and I’ve been thinking about this phrase a lot there–is “You don’t know what you don’t know.”…It’s just like the effect of this ignorance that you’re not even aware of with being first-gen. And just like not having parents talk to you or whatever. The single most influential positive force in my undergrad completion is one professor who I know. I had a professor this summer who, his class and his rhetoric of pedagogy or whatever, completely opened doors for me…It was my research class, teaching me about how research works. And I just was like, “I didn’t even know that was going on.” And that’s why I was so interested in doing this project is I have this new love of research simply because this individual took the time to teach about it point blank, period. Because that was the point of the class and also, like, very generous with his time talking to me after class and kind of mentoring me. And I just, like, two days ago, submitted a paper to a research conference. And that’s just like…I didn’t even know research conferences were going on. That was not on my radar. I did not, like…you know, even when I looked up stuff on the library’s website and looked up academic articles, like it didn’t click to me that there was this world of people devoting their time, energy, resources to, like, studying their topics of interest, which I guess is so obvious, like, duh, that’s what’s going on at university.

Lux: But it’s not visible, though, really.

Dorothy: Yeah. I had heard people talking about research. I dated someone once, who did research but it didn’t even…It wasn’t real to me. It was like an abstract thing that other people did and, especially in my humanities program where, you know, the research is a little more left-brained or whatever. I don’t even know if that’s the right hemisphere, but you know what I mean like…

Lux: Yeah, it’s more esoteric, and…

Dorothy: Yeah, I’m not filling beakers or examining minerals. I’m talking about structures of power. So, yeah, I guess to answer your question, there was a faculty member who was very, very generous with his time and his knowledge and…that’s why I’m applying to grad school now, and that’s why I’m really wanting to actually pursue academia now. It’s just because one person was so generous and thoughtful with his time.

Lux: I love to hear that. That is so cool. Can I ask who the professor is? You totally don’t have to disclose it.

Dorothy: I’d love to. His name is Damon. Damon Lawson Darling, Damon Darling. The Comm program. Just the loveliest, brightest person.

Lux: That is so cool. Congratulations about your paper…That’s so cool.

Dorothy: I really hope they pick it. 

Lux: I do, too! That’s so rad. What’s the topic?

Dorothy: It is…the title of the paper is “Country”–spelled the normal way–”or Cuntry”–spelled c-u-n-t-r-y, question mark” [“Country or Cuntry?”]: Buckle Buddies, Blondeness, and Resistant Storytelling.” And it’s a tripartite coding analysis, comparing the lyrics of two different young female country artists, and kind of assessing that one of them promotes, like, the master narrative of country music, and the other one is doing, like, a very resistant effort of “cuntry”–c u n t r y–that is, like, a counter story or resistant world-making effort that is liberatory for queer black female voices in a traditionally white genre. 

Lux: Oh, that sounds so cool! I love a good title. That’s so cool. Seriously, grad school is the path for you. I can totally see why.

Dorothy: I’m so happy.

Lux: So, so cool. I love to hear about research like this because it’s, yeah, it’s original research. It’s so great. So how do you handle all of the work life-school life-social/family life, how do you balance all of these priorities?

Dorothy: It was…a very busy summer, yeah. I mean, it’s my support systems. Like I am in the most amazing marriage to the most amazing individual. And, like…kind of already said this…my financial means changed in the past couple years because of, like, the luck of my living situation. And it would be so dishonest to say that having my bills paid and having a house…a room with a desk for me to work at, compared to–this is what’s making me emotional– compared to being a teenager, who did all of her homework sitting cross-legged on her bed because there was no dedicated workspace, like material support…whoa, sorry…Material support like really changed so much for me and made a lot of things just feel a lot more achievable and attainable.

Lux: Oh, it’s totally reasonable to feel emotional about that, like you’re remembering these periods of intense struggle, and I can tell that you’re really grateful.

Dorothy: Yeah. I am.

Lux: That’s, that is so hard being that teenager sitting cross-legged on your bed just trying as hard as you can to figure it out, and it sounds like you have a lot of–and I hope so–that you have compassion for your younger self, and how hard that must have been to get through. I am looking at some questions here, and I’m kind of going to go a little off script if that’s okay. Just talking with you, I’m wondering if you were to create any kinds of resources or services for students who are in a state of struggle, what kind of programming would you, in a pipe dream sort of way, you know…

Dorothy: Yeah, I mean, like with what I just said, honestly, money. That is something a teenage, a younger me needed so bad was financial support. I mean, social resources exist. There are tons of groups and, you know, clubs and stuff that existed in 2016, 2017 that I could have joined, but the social environments that I that I put myself in, you know, when I was struggling, I was in environments that were very negative…you know, me and my mentally ill friends talking about how mentally ill we were and how much we were struggling. Whereas, now, you know I’m in a social environment, where we’re talking about discipline and doing better, being better, and being supportive to one another. So if, you know, my 18-year-old self existed today, that’s what I would want for her is clubs and communities and organizations where, you know, like-minded people were lifting each other up and making space for each other in a positive sense. I did participate in campus activities, but I remember sitting in those spaces, feeling very alienated, feeling like I did not know what common ground I had with the girls in sororities, and what common ground I had with people who lived very different lives from mine. Yeah, I guess that’s what I would say is, one, I would offer financial support and, two, I would offer social support, like equitable settings.

Lux: Yeah, because I mean…for example, we have First-Gen Scholars, which is a for-credit course, right? But it’s only offered twice a week. It’s a one-day-a-week class. I said that in a confusing way.

Dorothy: I’m with you.

Lux: But it sounds like, I mean with a lot of the folks that I have talked with, either adding another course is too expensive, or it doesn’t accommodate their schedule. There’s not a lot of opportunities to connect with other first-gen students because you can’t by sight identify who’s first-gen, and I mean, while continuing-generation students do experience Imposter Syndrome, I feel like there are a lot of supports there to help them feel more like they’re not an imposter, like they do belong like, like “your dad did it, and you can do it, too” kind of stuff. So yeah, that totally makes a lot of sense. In that same vein, if you were…well, we could take this a couple of directions actually. Like you mentioned, if you were to talk to your 18-year-old self, who’s brand new to this environment, what kind of “lessons learned” would you want to offer to her?

Dorothy: The first thing I’d tell her is to stop dating people who don’t make you a better person. First and foremost, stop dating people who hate you. And then I would tell her that she needs to look out for herself. I hate to ever like condemn a victim mindset because I think people use that in a very ungenerous way, when they talk about, you know…because I think a lot of people who have a so-called victim mindset have it because they’ve been victimized, like, in situations where no one was looking out for them. But it’s like, “Hey, no one’s looking out for you so you need to look out for you. Like you need to take your ass to class, like you can’t, you know, wallow in how hard, like, how disadvantaged you like…That’s not true. You’re allowed to wallow in how disadvantaged you feel, but at the end of that you need to take the active steps to nurture yourself and to give yourself opportunities to get advantage. LIke I think about all the classes I skipped and all the, you know, messages I left on read, and all the assignments I didn’t complete. And it’s like, you know, yes things were hard but, if no one else is looking out for you then that means you need to. And like I say that with compassion, like if you continue to believe that you’re not worth the effort, you are never going to, like, find yourself…trying to figure out how to finish that phrase. Like so long as you believe that you aren’t worth effort, you are going to continue to feel like you don’t have worth.

Lux: Yeah, totally. So, looking back from where you’re sitting now in your final semester, and you’ve got a paper submitted to a conference. You’re looking toward graduate school.

Looking back, what are you proudest of yourself for over this journey?

Dorothy: I’m pretty proud of that paper. It’s pretty good. I’m really proud of all of the times when I felt like I–I’m trying not to use the phrase “hit the wall” because I hate that phrase. I think it just sounds so…and the connotations are icky. Every time I felt like I was backed into a corner, and then I like reverse and got out of the corner, like, I’m really proud…and even just over silly stuff, like I remember once having, like, a technical issue with an assignment and, like, you know, having a good cry about it and then, like, collecting myself and surpassing the technical issue and getting my assignment submitted. I’m really proud of that. I’m really proud that I made the choice to come back. I’m really proud that I made it through the paperwork and appeal process nightmare, because the younger version of myself would have shut down and given up. And like looking all the way back like I’m really proud that I took advantage of the campus resources and mental health, you know, counseling that was available to me when I was in that really dark, really scary place. 

Lux: Yeah, I’ve been there too, and thank goodness for those counseling services. Yeah. So, if you were to talk to either a high school student who’s considering taking that leap and being the first in their families to do higher ed, or we could even talk to, say, a brand new first-year first-gen student, what kind of advice would you want to give to them?

Dorothy: I would want them to understand that even when they feel very isolated, and they feel like they are out at sea, you know, on their island. As much as I was saying earlier, if no one else is looking out for you, you have to look out for you. There are people who will look out for them. I would want them to know that their professors are on their side, that, I mean maybe there are some professors who…but like the resources are there. When you’re in that dark corner, it might feel like you are all alone, but you aren’t destined to fail, like you…it’s not like an inevitability. This is such bummer advice. Oh my gosh. 

Lux: No, no, this is so good. Like, it’s so real…That sense of doom like, “Oh my god. I don’t know if I can do this…”like that feeling that you’re destined to fail. That is so powerful, and it can totally derail a person so, yeah, I don’t think that’s bummer advice at all. That’s just real. Yeah.

Dorothy: Yeah. I’m in my position at U Career Success, I was doing the tabling for orientation over the summer. And, you know, I was just telling people about the resources available there. And I just found that process so rewarding. I did not expect to enjoy tabling, but I really enjoyed tabling because it was just like it was…it was good to know that all of these, like, children–these literal children being 17, 18–that there is an expansive potential in store for them. And knowing that there are people who want to see them succeed, like each one of those kids had a student success coach, academic advisor, a career coach, they had the world at their fingertips on campus, like, should they choose to, you know, go for it. It just made me really happy.

Lux: And you’re there for them, too. Like you can tell. Your enthusiasm, I’m sure, had such a calming effect on those students, knowing like…because it’s scary, right? And knowing like, oh my god, this person who has a friendly face, who’s talking to me can help me figure out what those resources are that I maybe didn’t have access to myself, you know. So, yeah, I think that’s really important. Is there…Before we wrap up, is there anything that you’d like to add or anything that’s just like you’ve been thinking about in the lead-up to talking with me.

Dorothy: This is so silly and trivial, but I feel so bad that I didn’t, when talking about resources, give any shout out to…or I don’t know…this feels important to me. When I was a freshman in the business scholars program, there was an expectation that once a week you had to wear business professional attire to class, like a full suit. And I remember the day I went, in a panic, to H&M to try to buy a suit, and H&M didn’t have inclusive sizing for me. I had to buy clothes that were too small for me, and it was money I didn’t have, and then wear them once a week to class and just feel horrible about myself. And now today, there is a Career Closet at U Career Success where any student can go in, and there’s, like, actually a ton of clothes in there. You can borrow whatever business professional…there’s, like, suits and jackets and blazers and heels and, like, I think all the time when I’m in that Career Closet now about how much a younger version of myself needed that, and it makes me so happy that that exists, and so I just want to shout out that resource. And also that like structural inequity in the business program that led to me feeling bad about myself. Yeah, I just wanted to shout that out.

Lux: Yeah. Oh, that’s such a good story, too. I’m just so glad that you’re in these spaces and, like, using the experiences that you have had to help other students get the things that they need to get. That’s so important, and what a great legacy.

Dorothy: Thank you.

Lux: Thank you so much for talking with me.