14 May First-Gen Voices Interview Transcript: Joseline

Interviewer: Lux Darkbloom (LD)
Interview Subject: Joseline Sanchez (JS)

LD: Alright, so to start us off, could you introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about who you are and what you’d most like people to know about your story? 

JS: Yeah, so my name is Joseline. I am a first-generation college student. I’m the eldest of five siblings. But I’m also the eldest granddaughter, and so I feel like I take that role very seriously. I just feel like it’s almost my responsibility to not only be an example to my siblings and my young cousins, but just to show them that, like, they can be whoever they want to be, and that’s okay. So yeah, I feel like that’s what I would want people to know most about my story is, although I do feel like there’s a legacy piece to me being, you know, the eldest sister and the eldest granddaughter, I feel like, for the longest time, that meant something very specific to my family. You know, go to college, get married, and kind of just stay within our religion, and also have children and things like that. And so I feel like, with my experiences and the way that I’ve chosen to live my life, I’ve almost kind of, like, broken that mold. And when I mean an example to my siblings and my cousins, I mean just like showing them that, like you don’t have to do what people are telling you you need to do, right? That your story is yours to write, and it could look…it doesn’t have to look like mine. It doesn’t have to look like anyone’s. So, yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing that I really want people to know, is that just because I went to college doesn’t mean that it’s the road that everyone’s going to take, or it’s going to look like my road, basically. 

LD: Yeah, there are so many different paths and even multiple “right” paths, you know, so lots of choices. So thinking back to the beginning of when you started college, what or who really influenced your decision for you to pursue higher ed? 

JS: Yeah, so, I actually did my undergrad…I started at BYU, transferred to UVU. Right now I’m doing my master’s program here at the U for Education, Culture, and Society. I feel like with my undergrad, who really influenced me was my parents. I feel like they didn’t get to go to school, and so they really wanted their kids to be able to do that. And I feel like, as the oldest, that was definitely instilled in me way more than my younger siblings, I feel like my parents have relaxed a lot more with stuff like that, but yeah, like, as far as my master’s degree, I feel like, yes, there was the expectation from my parents. But at this point, I feel like it’s all me. Like, I really do love what I’m learning. I love what I’m doing. I feel smarter. I feel more confident. It honestly…I am falling in love with learning. And it’s really cool. 

LD: That’s so beautiful. I love to hear that. It’s so great. How did you decide on which master’s program you were going to go into? 

JS: Well, sometimes when people ask me that I’m like, oh, I feel like I need to give, like, a really big, deep answer, right? But I kind of almost just stumbled onto it. I was working in EDI before it got shut down here in the Center for Equity and Student Belonging. And, you know, working at a university, you see so many people…it’s almost like the norm for people to go and get, you know, their masters or PhD. And so it was really cool to see a lot of people that came from my same background, or that came from my neighborhood, or even had struggles that weren’t mine, that were much more difficult, going and getting their masters and PhDs. And so it really inspired me to see my coworkers, my friends, doing that. And I was like, wow. Like, I want to do that as well. And so ECS, like, I was able to…I, like, researched a lot of different programs, and some of them fit, some of them didn’t. And so ECS sounded really interesting, because I really love working in higher ed. I mean, there’s great things, and there’s lots of great things, right? Yeah, so, I was able to go and talk to someone at the ECS program. They really talked about how it’s the focus on, like, social justice and equity, and it really stuck to me, because I felt like, not only was it something I’m passionate about, but it’s also really personal. So, ECS was a really great choice for me, and, honestly, like, the biggest reason why I applied was because the application was still open. And I was like, “Whoa, this is great. Like, this is a program I was considering. I still have a month to apply, like, why not?” And so I feel like I was really lucky to find a program that worked for me. So I’m really lucky. So, yeah…

LD: That’s awesome. You mentioned you worked at one of the resource centers before. This is a little off script, but I’m curious about, like, how you felt about that closure, how it impacted the folks that you interacted with in that office.

JS: Just, yeah, I mean, I feel like my…How do I explain this? So I feel like the way that I see things is kind of twofold. I felt like before things got shut down, EDI efforts were starting to get a little watered down anyway. I feel like they weren’t really focusing on the students that they were intending to help. And I feel like they were more catering to either white feelings, or also just, like, policy or, like, university feelings, instead of really paying attention to what the students needed. And so I feel like before we shut down, things were kind of already starting to get to the point where we weren’t really being helpful, right? And it almost felt to me like it was more focused on recruitment efforts than it was, like, actually serving and helping students, which I don’t think was necessarily the fault of the center. I think they were just trying to basically meet what the university was asking them to do. And so when we got shut down, I wish that I was surprised. I wasn’t. I almost felt like I knew where it was going. But it felt like a really huge personal attack, more than it was like a, you know, like a, like a job type of thing, because it’s not only what I was doing for my work, but it was also my lived experience. And I’m, like, just even getting emotional, sorry. [Crying] I’m thinking about the students that I worked with that wouldn’t have those resources to at least guide them through. It was really hard to kind of sleep at night, and it was really hard to come to work, expected to do a job that was not going to be there. So yeah, and also, that was around the time where there were a lot of, like, protests happening on campus, and our students were being really mistreated. And so, yeah, it was a really huge impact, and it almost like I didn’t really care about my job. I cared more about what that meant moving forward because it was just the beginning, unfortunately, yeah. 

LD: Yeah

JS: Sorry 

LD: No need to apologize. A lot of these questions are, yeah, they come from vulnerable places.

JS: Yeah, and you don’t realize that until you start to talk about it and feel it in your body, so yeah.

LD: For sure. Take your time. We don’t need to rush through anything. 

JS: Yeah, yeah.

LD: That was a very dark period in our University history, I think, and continues to be.

JS: For sure

LD: Really, truly. And yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. The way that we have let down so many of our students. 

JS: Yeah

LD: I think, whether the university intended to or not, they made this feel very personal. There are a lot of feelings there for me, too. 

JS: For sure, for sure, and there’s still a lot of feelings that we’re sorting through. 

LD: Yeah, totally. 

JS: We’re still feeling the impacts of those things. We’re still sorting through them. But one of the things that I feel like has really gotten me through is I have been studying a lot of like, indigenous theories, a lot of, like, really cool, like, educational theories in school as well, and some of the things that I feel like I’ve learned in class. It talks a lot about how death–the death of things–is almost like a cycle, right? Like something might have died, but that means that something else could take its place, and they could actually be more beautiful and bigger than what you originally had made, right? And so I feel like I’m seeing that now within my current work. Like we might not be doing explicit DEI work, where we’re getting to say that that’s what we’re doing, but I’m starting to see our students rebuild community. I’m starting to see staff build trust again. I’m starting to see us bring in our own lived experiences and personalities into what we do. And so, sure, you can take away our buildings, you can take away our titles, you can take away the names of our centers, but our students are so resilient, and we are so resilient that we’re still going to find a way. So it’s been really, yes, it’s been hard, but it’s really beautiful to see the growth, even within this past year and a half. Right? I just feel like that just speaks level to who our students and our staff and our faculty are here on campus. 

LD: Yeah, I think it’s showing a lot of perseverance, which is incredible. These are difficult, brutal times, and to offer all of us to be living through. And more so for some than others, and I think that it’s, yeah, really important that we can maintain and build our community. Changing directions a little bit…

JS: [Laughs] That’s okay.

LD: So a lot of students talk about how challenging it is when they first arrive on campus. What were your early experiences like here? Or you went to BYU first, right? 

JS: Yeah, so I went to BYU first, and I might even get emotional talking about that stuff, because I didn’t realize how much it impacted me until I left. So my family, as much as I love them, I did feel like I wanted to have time away from them to discover who I really was, and to really, just like, have an experience that I felt like so many other like white American kids got to have, you know, like you would see on TV, you know, college experiences. And I really wanted that. And I really wanted to, um, not only experience that, but make my parents proud as well, to do something that, like, they never got to do. And so when I applied to BYU, I was really excited, because I also got a full-tuition scholarship, so that meant that I could afford to pay to live on campus. And so that, to me, was really exciting, because I was like, “Oh, I’ll get to live in like, a dorm, and, like, make all these friends!” But literally, my first day on campus when I got to the dorms and my parents were helping me move in, I immediately felt out of place–even just like my hair, the way that I dress, the way that I spoke, was completely different than everybody else. And I could literally count on my hand people that looked like me in a whole dorm of, like, what? 200 people, right? And so that was really tough, just to see, physically, how different I was from everyone. But that first day, I was like, “You know what? It’s fine. I’ll be okay.” Because I grew up in a neighborhood on the west side of Salt Lake where everyone looks like you, you know, or everyone had very similar experiences. So this was really one of the first times that I felt othered. 

LD: Yeah

JS: And so not only did I feel that internally, but, like, people did things to make me feel that way as well. My first day of class, I remember people would come up without my permission and touch my hair and ask me if it was real. And they would do it like, just right, like, behind me. Wouldn’t even ask me. I would tell people where I was from, and some of them that were from Utah, or from Salt Lake, would know where the west side of Salt Lake was. And they’d be like, “Oh, so did you like…Were you in a gang before?” I was like, “No, not everyone that’s on the west side is part of a gang.” And really, like, if you understand how gangs work within our community, you wouldn’t ask that, you know. And so I would get a lot of stuff like that. When people would find out that Spanish was my first language, they’d ask me to say something in Spanish, like, it was, like a party trick.

LD: A novelty

JS: Yes, a novelty, or something. Even just, like, the stuff that I was into or that I would listen to. I remember, there was this one time…so we had communal showers in the dorms. And I, you know, I love all types of music. Like, I’m really into punk. I’m really into hip hop. Like I just…I adore music. It’s part of who I am. And so I was going through a really huge Tupac phase. He was one of my favorite artists back then, and I remember listening to Tupac in the communal showers, getting ready for…I can’t remember if it was class or something. I got reported to my RA [Resident Assistant at the dorm] because I was listening to inappropriate music in the showers. And so, yeah, like, there were a few instances where I would get reported for very, like, tiny, minuscule things. I swore a lot because I just didn’t, like…Yes, I was religious at that time, but to me, like, the religion wasn’t as rigid where I grew up. And so the way that they even practice their religion–or our shared religion at the time–was very, very different than the way that I did. And so that was another way that they would isolate me. They would say that I wasn’t a good…I mean, just saying it…like I wasn’t a good Mormon. I wasn’t a good enough person to be calling myself a Mormon, because I wasn’t trying as hard as them. And so there were a lot of different ways that I felt very marginalized. And it felt like it came from so many different directions. And so that really started to affect my grades. It was really hard to go to class. I was really embarrassed to ask questions. I was really embarrassed to go talk to my RA if I ever needed help, even though she was a really awesome RA. So I think that really affected my schooling, and I was also undiagnosed ADHD as well. And that kind of resulted in me getting kicked out, and I almost didn’t go back to school because I didn’t feel like I was the right type of person to go to school. So transferring to UVU, getting diagnosed, finding a community that actually supported me…I joined a multicultural dance group of all first-generation college students that were all students of color, and that, to me, was a game changer. Not only did I find a group of people that were going through the same experiences as I was, but they also helped me embrace who I was, instead of hiding it, 

LD: Or, like, judging 

JS: Or judging. Exactly, exactly. And not only that, but I got to explore parts of my identity that I never got to explore. I identify as Afro-Latina now, but back then, being half-Dominican, half-Mexican, like, there’s a lot of anti-blackness within the Latinx community. And so being able to, like, fully embrace that, to say I am Afro-Latina, and really explore, like, my blackness and my Latinidad at the same time, it changed fundamentally who I was as a person, and it really helped me realize why I was in school in the first place. 

LD: Yeah, that is so beautiful. I mean…like one of our speakers [at First-Gen Con] was just talking about that. 

JS: Yeah, that really resonated. That was a beautiful talk. 

LD: Yeah, I think that’s so important, too, to look at those power structures, you know, that the dominant culture reflects and embodies, really, and the way that it impacts everybody, particularly folks who don’t fit whatever ideal is, you know, placed so high a value on. That’s very hard. It is very hard. So, this is kind of a nice segue, actually. Being first-gen, you often have so many goals that you have to balance, especially if you work while you’re going to school, you’re a student, you’re a member of the community, maybe you’ve got, like, a close relationship with your family. How did you navigate that?

JS: Wow, I feel like there was a lot of luck on my side just because, like, I was so busy. It was crazy. To think, back then, how much I was juggling, you know, because right now I’m only going part time in school. I’m only taking, like, one class at a time, so I don’t even know how I was able to get through, like, full-time school back then, because I was also working full-time. My first year, my parents were able to help me a little bit with school, to help at least pay for the dorms. But after that, I was kind of on my own, and so…sorry, I’m trying to remember what the [question]…

LD: Just, like, navigating the logistics, the work/life balance kind of stuff, yes. 

JS: So actually, my multicultural dance group was a really huge help to me because I did have upperclassmen in that group that were already working or had, like, part-time jobs or full-time jobs while they were going to school. And so I had somebody recommend a job to me that was incredibly flexible with a school schedule, paid okay, and was kind of just like a job where they were looking for a lot of college students. It wasn’t, like, the most amazing job in the world. I was tired every day, definitely underpaid, but it helped me get through school. So, definitely, having, like, a group of upperclassmen that understood what it was like to be like a little freshman or sophomore looking for jobs was super helpful, because I, you know, being the eldest, I didn’t have anybody that did anything before me, so I was figuring a lot of that stuff out on my own. And so it was really great to all of a sudden feel like I had elder siblings helping me out. And so that dynamic of having upperclassmen around me and being my friends was, honestly, like a really huge help, because I got to see myself in them as well. 

LD: Yeah, definitely, yeah. And there’s like, this whole notion, too, that we have in academia of, like, the invisible curriculum…

JS: Yes

LD: Which is in itself a barrier that we just kind of accept that and don’t create resources to close that gap. So, you know, a lot of these conversations that I’m having with other first-gen students, it’s…yeah, we look to our peers, and thank goodness, they come through for us, too. 

JS: They do.

LD: They really do. They’re a huge source of support. 

JS: They are, and, like, it’s kind of a double edged sword, right? Because I feel like, because of that invisible curriculum, there’s a lot of pressure that’s put on first-gen faculty, staff, students, to be able to pull up others, which is…it’s beautiful. Like we’re always willing to do that, right? Because someone did it for us. But that does take a lot of mental, emotional toll, right? To feel like you not only have to navigate your own things, but you’re also trying to help your community as well, with really almost no help from the institution. So I feel like there’s a lot of institutional accountability that we need to have conversations around…Either people aren’t willing to bring it up because they don’t really know how to bring it up, they don’t realize that that’s what’s happening, or they don’t feel like they’re in a position of power to be able to do so. There’s a lot of different reasons, right? But I think it’s a lot more tiring when you recognize what’s happening, and you feel like you can’t do anything about it.

LD: Yeah, like the future is in somebody else’s hands in that way. And…especially, you know, from a faculty perspective, there is a real sense that I’ve noticed with other [faculty] that, “Well, I didn’t know this when I started. They’ll just figure it out.” And I’m like, that’s wild. That is a wild perspective. 

JS: Yes, I agree. I agree. That’s very selfish [unintelligible]. 

LD: It’s like a hazing.

JS: You’re reinforcing a structure that harmed you. 

LD: Exactly

JS: Why would you want to continue to do that? 

LD: Why maintain the barriers instead of breaking [them] down?

JS: Exactly

LD: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So, you talked a little bit about this earlier, but I’m wondering, in terms of support systems, if there was a specific mentor, or campus resource, or even just a friend, a peer, somebody who you felt, like, these upperclassmen who gave you some guidance, who stood out for you. 

JS: I feel like I have to think back. It’s been a minute, but definitely my RA when I was at BYU. I felt like she did everything in her power to understand the experiences of her marginalized students that she had. There were, like, five of us within her hall that had very similar hard experiences to really navigate college, and I felt like she did a really good job of doing her best to protect us, or to even, like, just sit there and listen to our experiences, even if she couldn’t necessarily do anything, right? And so that was really great to, at least, feel like I had someone to have my back where I was living. When I transferred to UVU, I studied sociology in my undergrad. The Sociology Department was pretty small when I was there. Don’t know what it looks like now, but my professors within the sociology department were awesome. I think Dr. [Debjani] Chakravarti is actually here now.

LD: Yeah! Yes, she is here!

JS: She’s the coolest. 

LD: She really is.

JS: And so I took, I think, two or three of her classes when I was in undergrad, and just the way that she taught was just so inspiring and just like, badass.

LD: Yes

JS: Like, I just wanted to be her so badly.

LD: I currently want to be her.

JS: Right? And also, like, yes, she’s this badass, awesome educated woman, but she’s so down-to-earth, too. Like, she’s down to talk to any student that’s willing to come and speak to her. And so she made me feel really comfortable to be able to come and ask questions, be able to, like, talk about things that I might have been confused on in her classes. And she actually wrote my letter of recommendation to get into my master’s program. And when I got in, she, like, invited me to lunch and we talked. And it was honestly really cool to be able to have even, like, a brief connection with a professor. Like, I don’t know if she remembers me anymore

LD: I’m sure she does.

JS: Yeah, she’s really cool. And so, like, um, I don’t know. Like, it was really cool to see a woman of color within that position be a professor, because I don’t know, like, I’m kind of thinking of being a professor. It’s really cool to be able to see all the awesome research that she’s doing. So, yeah. So professors, older peers, people within my living situation, people within my dance group. My dance director was actually the director of TRIO at UVU. So he actually started the dance program as an independent project outside of the university, because he saw a need for it. And so just, like, people that have been doing that work years before I even showed up and noticed me and saw a potential in me. I’m just so thankful for them. I wouldn’t be here without them. So, yeah, well…[Crying]

LD: Yeah, a lot of feelings come up with these conversations, like, don’t worry at all. Navigating a university is–or university systems, generally–is such a challenging thing to do and not intuitive, and it’s…yeah, I’m glad that you had folks in your support system who helped you to recognize that you belong in these spaces, 

JS: Yeah, even for a brief moment in their class, or when I was with them, right? 

LD: Yes, totally. How has being the first in your family to go to college shaped the way that you interact with faculty, or how you find your place on campus, especially now as a Master’s candidate.

JS: So I feel like now within my master’s program, I’m not afraid to ask questions anymore. I feel like I will put myself out there to ask questions. I’ll go out of my way to go to office hours. Because that’s stuff that I didn’t do in my undergrad, and I highly regret [not] doing it, because I feel like I wouldn’t have struggled as much if I wasn’t scared to ask for help. And so even if I’m, like, intimidated by the professor, I’m really proud that I’ve been pushing myself to at least go talk to them and ask questions. So, like, within the work that I’m doing right now, I oversee a first-gen scholarship program, and so I do a lot of, like, programming stuff for them, you know, like, I plan workshops, things like that. And so, I feel like, when I’m planning these workshops, I’m thinking about my experience of my undergrad, what I wish I would have known, what I wish people would have told me. And so when I’m, like, collaborating with people across campus, I am very specific about what I’m looking for within programming or within workshops. And so I, like, kind of almost make, like, a little bit of an outline to them, like, hey, these are the type of students I’m working with. These are the common things that they’re struggling with or that they bring up within one-on-ones, or I’ve seen within my lived experience. Can we come up with some sort of workshop or PowerPoint that we can work through with these students? For example, I have this awesome colleague of mine and friend that’s in my master’s program. She also…I think she also teaches at the University of Utah as well. She’s a PhD candidate. But she teaches her students how to speed read at the beginning of each semester, because there’s a lot of heavy reading involved in college. And so when I saw, within the program, [she was] reading through chapters of books in a matter of an hour, and I was spending, like, three days on one thing. I was like, “Vivian, can you, like, teach me how to do that? That’s awesome.” And so, like, she kind of explained how to speed read. And I was like, Do you have some sort of workshop or something that you could teach my kids? Because I think it’d be really valuable for them to learn in their undergrad, because it’s kind of embarrassing that, like, I’m learning this now in my master’s. So stuff like that, like, kind of noticing any of the holes that, like, I had to experience and that they’re currently experiencing has really helped me, like, engage with faculty, to be able to collaborate, to try our best fill those holes, right? Like, we can’t do everything, but maybe just that one workshop of speed reading helped a student get a better grade, right? 

LD: Absolutely. And I think that we so often see programming, especially for specialized programs like first-gen, where, administratively, they’re looking at demographics, rather than lived experiences to determine these services and resources. So I think that is so cool that you take into consideration your own experience and the lived experiences of the students that you’re interacting with. 

JS: Yeah, and really thankful for my coworkers in my center because we all were impacted by the EDI closure. And I really love that, like my director and my co workers really trust my lived experience and my expertise or just what I’m studying because they give me the freedom and the liberty to be able to decide what my program looks like. So I’m really lucky. I feel like a lot of people don’t get that experience so it’s been really great. It’s been a little healing, honestly, after everything that we experienced.

LD: So looking at your social and emotional well-being, in what ways has this journey challenged you. In which ways has it empowered you?

JS: I mean, I feel like undergrad itself was a huge challenge. I was away from my family. I didn’t know what I was doing. I was in a predominantly white institution, and so it really challenged me to not focus so much on outward validation and to really be sure of myself and not necessarily have to worry about what other people thought of me. I mean, it was really hard to not do that because, you know, you want your peers to like you. You want to fit in. But I feel like the older I got, the higher up in higher ed I got, the more I realized that, like, the system was built specifically to marginalize me. And no matter what I would do to try to fight against that, there’s always going to be someone or something that’s going to think badly of me or is going to put me in a box that I don’t belong in, right? So I feel like understanding fundamentally that the system was and is still against me, kind of, like, helps a little because I’m not so surprised when things happen. It doesn’t catch me off guard. I’m almost, like, prepared for it. And then, like, ways that it’s empowered me…I love, love, love the way that I’ve learned how to think critically. I feel like in my undergrad, like, you kind of get a touch of that, but I feel like, in my master’s, I’ve been able to really dive deep in what it means to think critically, to question things, to really analyze under frameworks or different experiences, or just different fields of study, right? I’ve written a lot of papers on like punk pedagogies and Afro-Latinidad, and just a lot of, like, feminist theories as well, and it’s been really empowering to be able to recognize that my story matters and that, like, there’s so many fields of study and so many theories that people like me have have contributed to academia and that I can interact with and add to as well. Like I am currently in Racial Battle Fatigue. I’m taking the class right now with Dr. Smith, and he’s super cool, especially because he coined racial battle fatigue. I’m literally learning from the person that, like, created this…or not, created it, but, like, brought it into academia, right? And so, what he’s been telling me is that my scholarship within Afro-Latinidad–or Afro Latinas in general–hasn’t been explored very much because this is a hybrid identity that people are really starting to, like, bring into academia. And so he’s telling me, like, sky’s the limit for you, like you can really add [unintelligible] knowledge in a field of research into something that’s emerging. And so it’s been really empowering to hear that. Me…like some girl from the west side of Salt Lake City, can add…[Crying] wow, sorry…can make a difference. I can be, you know, like, interested in weird and niche things, and I can add to academia however I’d like, you know. And it’s been really cool to be able to have professors that believe in me and see my work and see the potential and what it can be, even something as niche as punk pedagogies. It’s so cool to be able to see a professor say, “Wow, I love how you spin that framework into this and that and this,” right? So, yeah, it’s been really empowering to see how my mind can develop and what I can add to the world, even if it’s just a little piece.

LD: Being your authentic self in these spaces is, in itself, like revolutionary, really. 

JS: 100%. That I can, like, go to a punk show and write about transnational punks that have come from different countries that are now here in Salt Lake, writing about their experiences and sharing about it in, like, small DIY punk scenes. Like, how fucking cool is that? And how cool is it that I get to go and talk to them and write about those experiences, but also write about my lived experience as, like, an Afro-Latina punk in Salt Lake. Like, wow. You would never guess that people would care to really read about that. But even if they don’t, I learned about it. I got to talk about those stories. I got to add to it so…

LD: And I guarantee there are so many people who want to read about this and see themselves in these stories too.

JS: Exactly

LD: And it is really hard. This specific geography can be very, very challenging where it’s not just a predominantly white institution, but historically. And it’s like…I think that for folks who are white, they don’t see the culture of whiteness. They don’t see the way that our programming embodies that

JS: Yes 

LD: And how that very negatively affects students.

JS: Yes

LD: Like, we cannot keep assuming that, like, whiteness and academia, they shouldn’t just be like, “Well, we’re old buddies, right?” Like, we know that these systems were created by and for wealthy Christian white guys.

JS: Yes

LD: And that doesn’t mean that’s where it ends, just because that’s where it started. It is so valuable to have these stories, and perspectives, and folks in those classrooms that, like, we don’t just keep, you know, pushing…like a culture of whiteness into those spaces where they don’t…we don’t need it. We really, truly don’t. It’s been close to 200 years since this university was formed. I think we need to acknowledge and make it part of our historic record–these voices–because that’s justice, right? 

JS: Yes, and then using those stories to continue to carry out justice. 

LD: Absolutely. 

JS: Yeah, I agree. There’s definitely a lot of work that needs to be done, but I’m really proud of the work that’s already been done, even if it’s been shot down or not recognized, like, I recognize it. And that’s, that’s what matters, you know?

LD: Yeah, the way that I think about this, in terms of libraries, like, when we’re doing collection development, for example. We don’t need to mirror what the institution is, and we’re not going to go about it in a “democratic” way. All voices, all identities comprise our university and these spaces and these collections, and if, if even one person feels seen, that’s the value of those spaces and resources. 

JS: Agreed

LD: Looking back at your college journey and university experiences today, what is something that really stands out for you as, like, something that you’re proud of?

JS: Yeah, I mean, I’m really proud of putting myself out there and leaving home. Not everyone in my family did that. And I’m the first one in this generation to do that. And so leaving home and discovering who I was on my own outside of my family, I’m so incredibly proud of that because not everyone gets the privilege to do that, and I was able to do that for myself. And another thing that I’m really proud of is putting myself out there and meeting new people in college and, you know, joining that dance group. Like, I’m not the most amazing dancer, but it was really cool to be able to develop that skill and meet new people. And I was also able to travel to different parts of the world with them. Like, I got to go to Mexico, to Costa Rica. We got to go to the Navajo reservation, too. It was really cool. And so being able to have those experiences in college where I had a group of friends, I got to travel. Like the women in my family didn’t really get those experiences. The women, specifically, I think about. I mean, the men, too, but, like, at my age, my mom was already a mother to, like, two or three kids, right? And my grandma, same thing. And so for them to have been able to see me experience those things and have fun. My mom and my grandma even got to see me perform in Mexico with my great-grandma. Like, it was…Oh, my God, a really beautiful experience, right? An intergenerational experience. Like, because of them, I was able to do those things. And I’m also really proud of even getting into my master’s in the first place. I didn’t meet the GPA requirement. I think I was like, like, three or four points off, right? And so I was really scared to even apply, and I didn’t think I was gonna get in. And so I didn’t even tell anybody. I kept it a secret because I told myself, like, if I didn’t get in, no one would know. I wouldn’t have to say anything to anyone. And so when I got in, it was almost, like, on a probationary period, right? Like I had a professor, Dr Alvarez. She’s i in the ECS program. She’s amazing. She saw that I had applied. She knew who I was because of the work that I was doing prior with CESB and also within CSAR, where I am at right now. And she saw my name in the application, and she said, you know, like, “I know that her grades aren’t amazing.” But she vouched for me to the committee, and she met with me before I got accepted, and she said, “Listen, your grades are not who you are. I see your potential. I want you in this program, but you need to understand that I’m vouching for you, so I need you to do your best.” And the fact that she believed in me, the fact that she fought for me, and the fact that she helped me continue–because I had family struggles my first year, and I had to take a leave of absence. I thought I wasn’t going to go back, and I was embarrassed because I felt like I had let her down. She helped me through it. She helped me through the the leave of absence process. I was able to come back. I’m so proud now because, like, I went from like, being at a 2.7 GPA to a 4.0. 

LD: Wow

JS: Yeah, I’m getting straight “A”s. Every single one of my professors is really proud of the work that I’m doing, and even Dr. Smith is now telling me, like, “Listen, if you haven’t thought about a PhD, I need you to start thinking about PhD. You have the mind of a PhD student. I don’t want to pressure you, but when you go and you get your PhD, please, like, include me in the process, because I would love to help you get there.” So I’m, like, incredibly proud, and I’m so lucky to have all these people that believe in me and care for me. And, yeah, sometimes it’s kind of hard to remember that when things get really hard. And then, lastly, I’m just like, I’m really proud of sticking to it even when things got hard, and even when I didn’t believe that I could do it, because, I mean, I graduate next year…and so, yeah, like, I’m getting imposter syndrome about [going for a] PhD. Like, I’m scared of that too. But if I could do this, why couldn’t I do that? So, yeah, I’m proud of how far I’ve gotten, and I’m sure my ancestors are proud of me, too. 

LD: I think so. If you were to talk to your past self–or if you wanted to take it a little different direction, maybe another first-gen student–what advice or piece of wisdom would you want them to hold on to? 

JS: There’s so many things I wish I could say…the person that you are in this moment is a part of who you are, but it’s also not your final self, you know. You’re going to continue to develop as a person, as a human being, as a student. And embrace that change, you know. It might be kind of scary to realize that you’re thinking differently, that your opinions are changing, that you might feel a little alienated from even family members because they haven’t had the same experiences as you. They might not necessarily pay attention to what you’re doing or realize how much work has been put into where you’re at right now. But if you feel great about the things that you’re doing, if you are validating yourself, that’s all that really matters. At the beginning, yes, my family encouraged me to go. My biggest “why” was I wanted to make my parents proud. But now, like, I mean–I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way–my parents probably couldn’t even tell you what I’m studying. They probably couldn’t even tell you what my research encompasses, no matter how many times I tried to explain it. It doesn’t feel like it’s necessarily something that’s important. It’s more that they want to see that title, but they don’t value the work that’s been happening up until then, right? And so the biggest piece of advice that I would give to a student is, yes, it’s so important to make your family proud. And family is very valuable and you are doing this to, like, help advance your family lineage and make your ancestors proud. But at the same time, you really need to find the reason. You really need to realize that you’re also doing this for yourself. You’re doing it because you love to learn, because you’re happy with what you’re doing, because you want to advance whatever field of study you’re in, you know. So yeah, finding your “why” and really rooting it into you–and not outside people so much, or outside validation, right? 

LD: Yeah, like that intrinsic drive. LIke, why am I here? 

JS: Yes

LD: And it’s so valid to do it for yourself. 

JS: 100%. 100%. And I think that’s where I kind of am with a PhD right now, too. You know, like, my parents might be really excited to say, “Oh, my daughter got her Master’s” and everything like that. But like I said, they couldn’t really tell you what I’m studying. They couldn’t really tell you, like, the work that I’ve put in. And so, for my PhD, I feel like my “why” has really changed. I want to add knowledge to the world. I want to expand what it is that I know about myself and about other people. I want to learn about niche and weird things that, like, are fields of study that people don’t really get to talk about, you know. Like I’m really interested in, like, tarot reading and, like, occult studies and punk pedagogy. Like, there’s a lot of, like, random, weird, niche things. And I feel like my master’s is the way that I’ve been learning to think critically and analyze things. It could be applied to literally anything. And so basically, like my “why” is I want to become a human archive of literally everything that I love. That’s what I really want to go to school for.

LD: That was beautiful. 

JS: Thank you. 

LD: Thank you so much for talking with me. It’s been so insightful, and I think that a lot of folks are going to really learn a lot from your story. 

JS: Thank you. And I’m excited to see other people’s stories. I’m definitely going to go listen to them while I’m, like, reading scholarships and stuff. So, thank you so much for the opportunity. That was kind of really healing.